Talk:Scutigera Coleoptrata/Archive 1 - House Centipede Extermination

- 13.13

How to get rid of centipedes | centipede pest control | centipede ...
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6.5 inch specimen?

The article contains a claim that "The biggest found one was 6 1/2 inches." I really doubt they can get that long, but if there's a source for it...

Also, it's probably inappropriate to be citing the corresponding answers.com article. It's more or less a mirror of Wikipedia's article, so it's just a self-reference. At the moment one difference is that the other article claims "high doses of radiation can cause the centipede to grow to lengths exceeding three feet." .... Jagan (talk) 05:52, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

House Centipede Extermination Video




Copyrighted material

I removed the following material, which appears to have been copied directly from http://www.uark.edu/depts/entomolo/museum/house_centipede.html

66.194.52.249 Italic textWell now I know! I live in a dry apartment and I encountered one of these things,Lol. A few months back I saw one of these things zipp along the edge of my rug and wall,they are fast!!! Well I lost sight of it and haven't saw it in months,but couldnt sleep because of its uglyness and not knowing what it was. Well just recently I came home from work at night and saw the thing on the side of my sofa,with a peice of dorito in its mouth! So I didnt waste any time I captured it hoping it will die,but felt guilty and let it go two days later. Now that I did my research because of curiousity,im glad I let it live,but not inside my house!Location,Upstate NewYork.

i saw one in my house in nyc i call them the "alien bug" --Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.246.83.230 (talk) 08:14, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

House Centipede - Scutigera coleoptrata | Jon's Home Blog
www.thaltech.com


I don't kill them

I encounter them quite often in my house (southern Russia). Indeed, they look quite scary, but they don't move as quickly as this article (and others) describe -- I can catch them in a glass quite easily. Just found one in an empty wine glass right on my desk, tyingh to climb out (how did it get there?). I don't kill them, just throw them away from my balcony.

Centipedes are not insects. --Crustaceanguy 19:20, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I was going pee and grabbed some toilet paper and it was on the toilet paper and started to crawl up my arm. Oh my god did I scream bloody murder...

I saw one recently, for the second time in my life. The first time, it disappeared in a hole in the bathroom that looked about half its size. However, this time it was in the wrong part of the bathroom, and wasn't moving to escape. I was hoping it'd crawl in the hole again, because my dorm windows don't open, I think, and I'm on the 3rd floor, so even if I did catch it, I had no convenient way to put it outside. Reguardless, I tried a few times with toilet paper, to no avail, then quickly stepped on it while it was running in the open. I felt a little guilty, but after all, it couldn't be helped, and this is my residence not its. It's still a shame it had to die, since it does sound like a useful bug, and it's between a spider (eww) and an ant (aww. I like ants) on my gross-out scale. Kevin 00:58, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

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They can kill a wasp

These things don't mess around. My roommates and I caught a fairly large one of these a few years ago and kept it in a small container. We weren't sure what it ate, but we put some water and bits of potato in. A few days later, we caught a wasp (this house had all sorts of insects in it) and put it in with it to see which would win. The centipede must not have liked the potato because it quickly attacked the wasp and made short work of it. We decided to let it go, partly because we were scared of it and partly to get it started on the cockroaches and crickets but in hindsight, they would actually make a decent pet.

  • I killed one yesterday in our bathroom - it was trapped in the stand-up shower. Boy, could it move! The author is right about the alarming appearance, heh heh. --Cheese Sandwich 15:46, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
  • I saw one race across the floor in my bedroom where my baby also sleeps - any reports of these things actually biting a baby? I am scared for her but can't seem to find the sucker again.
  • Doubtful they would be dangerous to your baby -- they tend to be quite fearful of things larger than they are. --Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.212.30.130 (talk) 17:28, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
House Centipede - Scutigera coleoptrata | Jon's Home Blog
www.thaltech.com


My Experience

These things are freaky! I saw one a few days ago in the laundry room but couldnt conquer my fear of these things to kill it. Then (guess what happened) I'm doing my laundry and it COMES OUT OF THE SLEEVE! At this point, I freaked out. So, I have tacked a large sheet over the area to make it dark, I offered it some chocolate, and the area is dry so it can't survive for long. Sooner or later, its going to come out from wherever it is and I will find it and capture it. And flush it. Alive.

Millipede and Centipede Removal | Urban Wildlife Control
www.urbanwildlifecontrol.com


Eeek

I've seen like five in my dorm room this week... four mid-sized ones and one really big one. Killed the big one with a hammer cause it was so big and scary. Adm58 07:12, August 31, 2005 (UTC)

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Laboratory experiment

This article cites "a laboratory experiment of 24 house centipedes", which sounds an awful lot like someone doing their own informal test at home. If so, this is original research and doesn't belong here. If not, the lab's published report should be cited. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 07:58, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

I don't know which was written first, but this sentence (and several others in the article) are identical to http://www.uark.edu/depts/entomolo/museum/house_centipede.html. Since the uark article actually gives a citation, I'm guessing it's the original.

Yeah it's not original research. There's no way someone counted all those eggs in their house.-Jaardon 08:26, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Centipede Control | Waltham Pest Control Burlington MA 1-800-696-7378
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Thanks for the info!

At least now I know that I don't have to be afraid of the ugly little critters, and that they're actually keeping the other pests at bay. As long as I keep seeing no more than a couple a week, I won't bug-bomb the apartment to get rid of them. (Mine seem to live under the floor. Strange place, eh?) I'll still grab a paper towel, tissue, or wad of toilet paper (whatever is closest!) and squish them when I do see them, though! --Icarus 08:09, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

I capture them and keep them in containers. They're neat to observe. -Deuxsonic 03:20, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
How to Get Rid of Centipedes: 10 Steps (with Pictures) - wikiHow
www.wikihow.com


Damn Creepy

All I know is that I'd rather have a spider in my room than one of these things. I freakin hate these things. I always find them in my shower and I have no idea how they get in there. SkeezerPumba 17:29, 18 October 2005 (UTC)



Absolutely Disgusting

I have seen way to many of these things in my apartment, hanging out on my walls, running on the floor and in my bathroom and they absolutley repulse me. They move so fast and when you finally do catch one their legs fall off. I now finally know the name of the bug and I am still grossed out every time I see one in my apartment.

--and the legs keep twitching even after they fall off. Cool :)



Suggested Revision

The last sentence of the third paragraph currently reads: "Of course, stepping on one of these dropped legs is akin to stepping on clipped toenails and can hurt."

Why "Of course"? That implies that it's obvious; it doesn't seem obvious to me. Especially if you're wearing shoes... OK, just kidding, I know the writer meant "in your bare feet" although he didn't say so. I have to question whether that's even true. Their legs seem so delicate that it's hard to believe you'd even feel it if you stepped on just a leg. I have these in my home but I'm not going to try stepping barefoot on one of the legs to find out... has anybody done that? In any event, that sentence seems trivial and maybe we should just cut it out.

Another thought... these things are really gross and alarming looking, but in fact they're highly beneficial, eating lots of insect pests (like roaches and termites) and rarely biting people. Why is it that they look so disgusting to most people?

I read in one of the external links and references that their legs excrete some sort of poison, so maybe that's why stepping on the legs is not a good idea.-Jaardon 08:28, 23 May 2007 (UTC)



I love these things

I think they're kind of cute, they look like some kind of mutant spider-cricket. It is a little scary at first when they run across your floor or wall. But they're just tiny little bugs, and they do a good service. I actually don't see what's so terrifying about them. Personally I find them less scary looking than any other kind of centipede. I wonder if they eat brown recluse. That would be grand.

Oh and if anyone catches one and wants to try and keep it, they will eat small/baby crickets. Also don't forget to mist the container so they have something to drink. The one I caught was not aggressive at all, just skittish.

I have seen many in my home which is just over 100 years old. I think they make their way up to the first floor from the basement. They totally creep me out. I don't care what they eat. I saw one running across the floor the other night and without thinking I jumped up off the couch, ran over and crushed it with my heel...barefoot! I quickly kill them when I see them because I know how fast they are and if they get under furniture or somewhere else you will never get them. By the way, I barely felt it on my barefoot. Very fragile. I'm hoping by knocking down the spider population in the basement I can get the centipedes numbers down.



Weakness to light

These insects appear to have some sort of sensitivity to light. I used a flash light to get one out from under a chair. They always run the other way from a light source. Should that be mentioned in the article?

I'm a real night owl, and I see these guys all the time when my lights are on, but it's usually in the middle of the night. So they are nocturnal but I don't think they have much sensitivity to light.-Jaardon 08:31, 23 May 2007 (UTC)



Hate Those Kingston Bugs

I've killed a handful of big ones this past week. I think the summer humidity is bringing them out.

I'm in Kingston, Ontario. The Oct 15 edit adds the single phrase that this is sometimes known as the "Kingston bug". I believe it, but Google turns up no other hits on that phrase that don't refer to this article. Is there a source for this assertion?

Never heard them called that, but check out the recent Queen's Journal(Volume 134, Issue 26) for a story about them. http://www.queensjournal.ca//index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=452&getsection=91&getnews=682 130.15.164.123 04:56, 21 January 2007 (UTC)



Hate These Bugs

I moved into a new place in New Jersey, and I've been battling these guys for the last few months. They are nasty, disgusting creatures. I've used shoes, brooms, magazinese, prayers to get rid of these things. I have a good idea of where they come from, and the only reason why I don't completely get rid of them is my hopes that they alse help to keep my mortal enemy away - caterpillars...uuugghhhh....



Possible way to get rid of them.

I had a small ant infestation about the time I had a few scutigera show up. I wasn't too fond of the ants, and even less fond of the scutigera. I figured the ant bait killed the ants. It takes a couple days for the ants to die from the poison, time to bring it back to the queen. Also time to get eaten by scutigera. Either the rest of the scutigera died from eating poison ants, or their food supply died and they moved on.



Is this comment necessary?

From the article:

Can't that be said of nearly any insect? Jeff Silvers 16:30, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

It's better than the phrase it replaced, which was about pouring Elmer's Glue on them.-Jaardon 08:53, 23 May 2007 (UTC)



I just hate bugs all together!

I am seriously scared of all insects (especially spiders) and when I saw the house centipede in my laundry room, I flipped out! I am so scared of spiders and now these centipedes, I just won't catch them! But, after reading this article, it seems that they can be useful. So maybe now I will just let them go... But they better not find their way up to my bedroom!--Kevin 0089 15:00, 23 July 2006 (UTC)



Oh God

Umm I just saw one in my bedroom yesterday night. Anyway to get rid of it? I just don't want to see it again. It's scary.Lord Vader 13:50, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I just want to say that is the most ironic post/username combination I have ever seen in my life. 69.6.105.175 02:44, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

What's best is when you reread it and try and imagine James Earl Jones saying it. GarrettJL 16:12, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

OMG best. idea. ever. I can't stop laughing now. Reminds me of Vader on Family Guy or those YouTube Vader videos.-Jaardon 08:33, 23 May 2007 (UTC)



Is there any decent way to get rid of these?

They scare the crap out of me, and I see them too often. Is there a decent way to significantly reduce their numbers or get rid of them entirely? Will professional extermination do the trick? For some reason I have doubts that one can keep them out of his or her house completely.

Are there any locations in North America where these bugs are not common household pests? --Eleo 18:38, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


In Wisconsin they are very common - in Madison i saw them in several apts that I lived in.

I am from Madison and never saw one in my life until moving to the north shore of Massachusetts. It makes me feel much, much better to read these posts and realize that I am not the only one to lose all rational thought when I see these horrible beneficial beasts. Maybe if I think of James Earl Jones it will help. --Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.119.138.32 (talk) 04:23, 4 November 2008 (UTC)



What's dogs got to do, got to do with it?

I'm a bit mystified as to what this sentence means under the section "Natural History," paragraph 2:

"Best defense: Bee-hunting dogs."

What, exactly, are bee-hunting dogs the best defense against? The centipedes? Wouldn't that be a centipede-hunting dog?

Or does each centipede have a bee-hunting dog to accompany it, and this is considered the best weapon in the centipede's arsenal (a la the Simpsons: Dogs with bees in their mouths)?

Anyway. I recommend rephrasing this sentence or removing it all together. Lpython 23:54, 26 July 2006 (UTC)



one came out of my nose!

Yes, one really came out of my nose this morning. I thought I had a parasite or something, but after much research and a visit to two doctors today, I am almost positive that this thing was up my nose and it came out when I was in the shower. It stung me too. It was one of the most traumatic things that has happened to me, I think because I actually saw it coming out in a mirror. I'm kind of scared to go to sleep right now...

Holy crap. I'm never sleeping on my floor again (something I do pretty often, actually). My dad had an experience where he was drinking wine and felt that he swallowed something. He immediately spit it back into the glass and sure enough, it was a huge one of these things.-Jaardon 08:37, 23 May 2007 (UTC)



Multiple centipedes in the same location

More then once I've encountered multiple centipedes in the same room simultaneously, or even in extremely close proximity to each other (I guess they don't try to eat their own kind). I'm wondering if there's any reason for this. Perhaps mathing? Generally I see them fairly rarely, so I find it odd that ocassionally they're in the same place. I remember recently, I tried to kill one and it ran into another while trying to make its escape. Kind of disgusting :( Just today there were two on the ceiling, perfectly still at the time, but only about three inches away from each other. I didn't even realize it immediately, I figured I was only looking at once and the other was some sort of stain or something, as it was dark. Then of course when I sprayed in the general direction, I saw two run for it. They were both rather large and I am still sort of sickened by their presence. I hope poisoned both of them sufficiently enough that they will eventually die. I just found it sort of odd. -Eleo 09:13, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I saw four on my ceiling one time. There's this dark spot on the wall near my computer, and every time I see it in my peripheral vision it freaks me out, even though it's been there for a whole year. I read in one of the reference articles that the mothers actually lay on their side and nurse their eggs for several months until they hatch, so I would expect they wouldn't really eat their young, and you'll notice in the article it says they can lay up to 151 eggs at a time.-Jaardon 08:41, 23 May 2007 (UTC)



Added picture

Hey, I've added a picture I took of one of these freaky things that was captured in a pencil holder. Please tell me if I did anything wrong or if anything needs to be changed.



Ever been found in Australia?

Something that looked a lot like a house centipede ran up my leg while I was sitting at work this morning, but I work in Melbourne, Australia. I, & my work colleagues, had never seen anything like it before. Has it ever been recorded as living in Australia, or am I confusing it with a similar native species? Climatically, Melbourne is similar to parts of Europe or North America, so I guess if it could make the trip, it would happily survive here. (Stentong62 05:56, 11 January 2007 (UTC))



Contradictory information on their bite?

"because of their alarming appearance, frightening speed, and painful bite, few homeowners are willing to share a home with them. They do not cause damage to food or furniture."

"The house centipede is capable of biting a human, but this seldom occurs. When it does, it is no worse than a minor bee sting. The worst one can usually expect from a house centipede's bite is some pain and a slight swelling at the location of the bite."

Painful bite in the first line here, then the article promptly reassures us that the bite rarely happens and isn't really that bad. According to Eric Rickey, manager of the Canadian National Identification Service for Insects:

"Rickey said that technically you can be bitten by house centipedes, but it's rare and the harm would be minimal.

'You'd have to be pretty, let's say, thin-skinned,' he said. 'It has very small mandibles and that's the only way it can actually bite or sting. It doesn't have a stinger like a bee or a wasp, but it can bite and it does have venom--that's how it kills its prey. But to you it would be a mild bee sting if it were able to bite you, like, maybe, in-between your fingers or something where there's a delicate web of flesh.' "

http://www.queensjournal.ca//index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=452&getsection=91&getnews=682

Sounds to me like the "they're not so bad" line is more accurate, and that they're of little to no threat to people, except perhaps by inducing heart attacks since they're so freaky looking. Opinions on editing the first line to perhaps include some of this information(small mandibles, effects similar to a mild bee sting)? 130.15.164.123 05:06, 21 January 2007 (UTC)



Moved from article

"In an act of defense, when one of the house centipede's legs is held down, it drops that leg in hopes that the attacker will be distracted by the temporarily twitching appendage. (pers. interview)"

I have no reason to doubt it, but the principle is a principle. This is not WP:V-verifiable. Personal interviews don't count as sources. --91.148.159.4 15:35, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

If a lizard will grow a tail back i wouldn't put it past a centipede.Although im in florida and I haven't seen what they can do, but my Aunt and Uncle were in St.Croix and they've seen some. --Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.18.233.173 (talk) 20:45, 18 October 2007 (UTC)



Eventual war?

Doesn't this part of the article seem made up?

"One of the world's largest concentrations of house centipedes reside in the Royal Military College of Canada (RMC)'s Fort Haldimand, where they are known as 'haldibugs'. As a test of fortitude and bravery, freshmen at RMC are encouraged to work as a team and visit the lair of the Queen haldibug to kidnap one of her hatchlings. Since 1997, only six haldibugs have been successfully extracted. Given time, the captured haldibugs will lead the eventual war between man and bug. See Starship Troopers as a future historical reference."

This implies that house centipedes will one day wage war against human beings much like the war depicted in Starship Troopers. While hilarious, this probably isn't true and is certainly not verifiable. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by Scotty1time (talk o contribs) 05:59, 5 March 2007 (UTC).

LOL this totally needs to be re-inserted into the article.-Jaardon 08:43, 23 May 2007 (UTC)



Names

Most of the following might be true, or it might be just invented nonsense, so we should choose the safe option. Some of it is not very notable either. No relevant google hits for any of the supposed colloquial synonyms, no way to check it. The bit about "the world's largest concentrations" is especially suspicious, and the word "haldibug" appears in the above as well. --91.148.159.4 23:30, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

A large colony of house centipedes resides in the East Quad of Brandeis University, resulting in the arthropods being dubbed "East Bugs" on the campus. Likewise, a colony lives in Old Dorm Block (ODB) of Reed College, where they are known as "ODB Bugs." One of the world's largest concentrations of house centipedes reside in the Royal Military College of Canada (RMC)'s Fort Haldimand, where they are known as 'haldibugs'.

In Ontario, Canada, house centipedes are known as 'feather dusters'.

In the Midwest, these bugs are known colloquially as 'fringe animals' and 'bazillopedes'.

In the Washington, DC Metropolitan area, house centipedes are also known as 'desk crawlers' because they could often be found on desks of unsuspecting residents.



Re: Eventual War / Unverifiable

The RMC portion of that is certainly not true. I don't see it being one of the world's largest concentrations. It is however a big part of college culture as "Haldibugs" which is why people occasionally vandalize this article. I reccomend removing it. If every university listed the name they use for house centipedes then the article would be extremely long. Something like this belongs on the actual Royal Military College of Canada page as a piece of trivia.

OCdt 24295 DD Corkum, 4 SQN RMC



Edit from a recovering centipophobic

I removed the following lines which, I'm sure, were meant as a joke: "Because the house centipede is so fast, another trick is to, upon seeing one running, wait for it to stop. They typically freeze for a moment or two and resume running. While it is frozen, quietly squeeze Elmer's Glue on top of it. It will not be able to move and you should be able to dipose of it. Of course, only do this on a hard floor." LOL, squeeze Elmers glue on it. Good one. Anyway, I replaced it with a more serious & practical method of capturing a centipede. I tried it this morning and I'm happy to say I have myself a pet centipede now (temporarily, don't worry).

Also, I think it's obvious from these many comments that many people suffer from a fear of centipedes. Are there any psychologists out there who can tell us the name of this fear? I remember learning about a "fear of creatures with many legs" in my psych class in college, but that was 10 years ago, and I can't remember the clinical word.

Anyway, to anyone who's interested, I've overcome this fear (whatever it's called) by researching & reading up on centipedes for the last 5 years. Once you realize how damn cool they are, your irrational hatred melts away. Good luck, fellow centipophobes.

71.185.67.169 18:38, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

YIKES I have been terrified of these guys forever but never knew too much about them . I had just been calling them facehuggers , thinking they looked really scary but really were just harmless. Turns out they are crazy predators! I broke down and did an investigation today after one got way to close to me. I was talking to my roomate and I was sitting in a chair. I stood up and continued talking to her . She looked at my thigh area in terror , she said my name , and immediately I knew , nothing else needed to be said , I tore off my skirt and ran up stairs into my bathroom were I tore off the rest of my clothes and stood on my toilet naked screaming bloody murder while my heart was jumping out of my chest. WHY oh why are they so scary

People are just scared of what they don't understand. I used to be scared of spiders until I saw Charlotte's Web and learned they are actually helpful in that they get rid of pests. I've been scared of these things for years until today. It's that time of year for them to come out and I've seen like 5 in the past three days, so I decided to read up on them and realized they're actually more helpful than spiders. I've come to terms with my fears now, even though I'm sure it'll take me a while to get used to seeing them and not freaking out.-Jaardon 08:48, 23 May 2007 (UTC)



Appears from nowhere

I just moved into a new house about a year ago, and have seen four of these in the past couple months. Every time I've seen one, it has always walked into the path of a light shining on the wall, either from a lamp or from some spotlights I have next to my TV. I've either been watching a movie or working on my computer, when seemingly from out of nowhere one of these crazy dudes appears on the wall, with a huge shadow created by the shining light. It scares the hell outta me every time, mainly because the shadow makes it look 5 times bigger than it really is. meateebon 07:32, 30 May 2007 (UTC)



How often do house centipedes eat?

I'm curious about this because some insects seem to be able to go days or even months without food and some die if you put them in a jar overnight. I caught a house centipede by placing a jar over it when I found it scurrying last night. I was too tired to deal with it at the time, but in the morning it was practically dying. The jar didn't create an air tight seal (it couldn't have suffocated) because it was turned upside down on the carpet over the centipede. If any one knows about how centipedes are kept in captivity (I've seen other articles about insect zoos or even centipede pets) I think that would be beneficial to this article! 7-15-07137.28.192.85 14:44, 15 July 2007 (UTC)



Confusion regarding subphylum classification

Ive been poking around wikipedia regarding centipedes and particular house centipedes and im a bit confused. It seems like there must be an error somewhere, but I have no idea where the error is. The house centipede article lists the subphylum as Uniramia, stating it is a variety of centipede. In the Uniramia article it states the the subphylum contains hexapods and myriapods, including centipedes. However the centipede article lists the subphylum as myriapod with no mention of Uniramia as the subphylum at all. So im lest confused, what is the real subphylum of centipedes including the house centipede, myriapod or Uniramia, and is myriapod really a subcategory of Uniramia at all, or are they both subphylums. I'm completely confused, and thing this is a major mistake that might need fixing. Debeo Morium 07:48, 26 July 2007 (UTC)



Contradiction - number of legs

The lead paragraph states they have 15 pairs of legs, the next paragraph states an average of 17 pairs when fully grown. I have therefor added a {{contradict}} tag to the article, in the hope that someone can provide a definitive, cited edit. DuncanHill 13:35, 5 September 2007 (UTC)



Size

Unless I'm being really dumb, the article doesn't mention typical sizes - I would appreciate this information (something I've generally found missing from some other articles on 'insects' (yes, I know these aren't). We don't (I think) have them in the UK, so I have no personal experience... - Steve --Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.137.91.247 (talk) 23:03, 28 October 2007 (UTC)



Size

We have little ones about 1/2 to 1 inch long and big ones that can get to about 2 inches or longer in our basement. They are fast. They cast a shadow. They scare the crap out of you. The are creepy when you kill them and their legs twitch. Terry jones



Pede-O-Phobia

Hey can we maybe focus a bit more on the actual centipede research and less on discussion edits about how much people hate these poor guys. I understand these creatures aren't well liked but I think other people would dislike it if the articles for stuff they were working on were flooded with comments like, "OMG, Pears - dude I hate pears once in 7th grade my dog choked on a pear oh my god they're so nasty". Thanks! --Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.192.56.30 (talk) 17:44, 6 October 2008 (UTC)



Environmental impact

Does anyone know anything about their environmental impact in the US? Do they cause problems with eating beneficial insects in the wild (in the US)? Do they have any local enemies? Do they eat fire ants, too? Have they been tried in fire ant eradication? Can one order them online anywhere? Lisa4edit (talk) 19:47, 30 December 2008 (UTC)



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